85% of us walk around feeling, at some point or another, like we can't show the world who we truly are. For a long time, I was part of that statistic, while in complete denial about the toll it was taking.
The reason we feel the need to hide parts of ourselves, and the solution, are not what you think. Listen in as Kim and Ray get real, and talk candidly about imposter phenomenon.
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Tickets to power hour
85% of us walk around feeling, at some point or another, like we can't show the world who we truly are. For a long time, I was part of that statistic, while in complete denial about the toll it was taking.
The reason we feel the need to hide parts of ourselves, and the solution, are not what you think. Listen in as Kim and Ray get real, and talk candidly about imposter phenomenon.
____
Tickets to power hour
This is Kimberly Bolourtchi, and you're listening to boldly stated, welcome to the podcast today, I've invited Ray back, those of you who listen know Ray is my spouse, and a pretty fun voice to have on the podcast with me. So although you don't know what we're talking about today, I'm really excited that you're back in the chair. Thank you.
Ray Bolourtchi:Thanks for having me back in the chair. I'm excited.
Kimberly Bolourtchi:Awesome. So what I want to talk about today is this idea of imposter phenomenon. I've been researching, as you know, to give a talk on the topic. And the funny thing is, it's kind of embarrassing, but when I started researching it, I saw this statistic that 70% of adults have this feeling of not being able to show the world who they really are. And 85% of high achieving women have the same feeling that you know, they could be found out to be a fraud, or maybe they don't know enough, or they're not qualified enough to be doing the things that they're doing. And my first thought, as I was reading through this was, Oh, my God, this like really sucks for those people. Right? I did not identify myself in this topic at all. And then the more I kept researching and reading, I recognized that I had a total blind spot, because I more than resonate with this idea. So before I tell the story that made me realize what what it was. I just want to ask you, do you ever feel like this is something you deal with in your life? Do you ever feel like maybe you don't know enough? You can't show people who you really are. You have to hide parts of yourself to be accepted?
Ray Bolourtchi:I call this the Congressman Santos syndrome. Well, you said fraud. No. Yeah, no, I don't.
Kimberly Bolourtchi:You don't?
Ray Bolourtchi:I don't. Okay. I don't. You know, I'll be honest with you. I think that there was a part. There was a time, you know, in my youth, you know, you have insecurities and judgment. I think that I would have jumped on it and said, Yes.
Kimberly Bolourtchi:Today, you just don't give a fuck do you?
Ray Bolourtchi:I don't. Okay, it is what it is. You don't you get what you see. Yeah. And let's do that.
Unknown:I love that about you. I will say though, I mean, I would have said the same about me, right. I feel like I very much kind of live in my own space. And I do my thing and I break the rules. And I'm you know, kind of a rebel reincarnate. But I'm going to be honest, and say that I have to acknowledge that there have been moments where I really can resonate. So back when I used to dance competitively, one of the first St. Louis Starballs that we ever had, I remember standing there and I was wearing my very skimpy costume that was, you know, covered in Swarovski crystals and my fishnet hose and my sparkly earrings, and I had so much makeup on that I think my mom walked by and didn't even recognize me. My hair was done, you know, and I'm getting ready to go out and and do a Latin dance, and I'm standing on deck. And my thought in my head was always, I don't want anyone in my professional world in the legal world to ever see me do this, because they won't respect me. They won't take me seriously, right? Like, this is my hidden secret. The fact that I'm a dancer, the fact that I love, you know, getting all dressed up and competing. And so I was standing there getting ready to compete, and I looked out because we're in freakin St. Louis. Everybody knows everybody in St. Louis, right? I look out into the audience. And I see a colleague, and I'm about to walk onto the floor. And I think to myself, like I started having that dual conversation in my head where I think to myself, like Oh, shit, I'm about to be discovered. Like, people are gonna know that I'm not who they think I am. Because there's this whole group of people out there who think of me as a lawyer, and I've worked really, really hard to, you know, have this professional image and to look professional and to sound smart and professional, which all of those things are true. But I never wanted anyone to see this side of me. Why? Because it's this belief, this deep seated belief that I can't show you who I really am, which is exactly what imposter phenomenon is, by the way, um,
Ray Bolourtchi:but you're doing exactly that you're actually showing who you are, because you're on the dance floor, and makeup and right, but compete,
Kimberly Bolourtchi:but I had compartmentalized the things right. So it was like, safe for me to do that. If nobody's told me do that. I didn't want anyone in the world of my professional world to see, you know, to see me dance because I was scared that they would think less of me. And so I'm standing on deck and I look out and I see this person and all of a sudden I have this idea, which is like I can't even it makes me almost nauseous to think about this, but I have this idea before I dance. I'm like, Well, I'm just gonna dance like a lawyer would dance like I'm gonna be really professional. When I did, and so I literally went out there and instead of being free, and instead of, you know, doing what I normally do, which is just like the whole world can see my soul when I danced and I let it all out. I went out there like holding myself, like very tall and very stiff and very like, I'm going to look like a professional while I am dancing Latin dance.
Ray Bolourtchi:So Latin dance, basically, you have to be a provacatrix. Correct. But then you decided to dance like a church lady.
Kimberly Bolourtchi:I mean, yes,
Ray Bolourtchi:all dolled up.
Kimberly Bolourtchi:Well, I mean, it wasn't like, I picked this, I'm going to look like that. But in my head, it was I can't be free. I have to. So I like pulled my lawyer persona into my body. Even though externally I looked completely different. I danced like a robot. I had no there was no passion, there was no fire, there was no connection. It was literally like, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god, you know, I'm going to dance with my brain. So I'm going to dance with how smart I am, which was a complete disaster. But, but also horrifying, right? Horrifying, to look back and recognize that I was willing to sacrifice all the work I put in to get ready for competition, all the time and passion that I devoted toward being really, really good at dancing and loving it my whole entire life. I didn't feel safe enough in the world to be both things at once. Why is that? It's because it's the essence of the way we're conditioned. Right? So we're taught when we're young, were were useful for me, like, like, my by greatest quality, according to the people in my life was my utility, right? I can be counted on I'm really, really resourceful. I'm really freaking smart. So if you need me to solve a problem for you, I am that person. Right? Like from the age of two on, people were looking to me to be older than I was wiser than I was. And I took a lot of pride in that because that's where people showed me love. Right? It was like, We love you, we accept you, we we value you when you are being useful. That is your that is your gift. Unfortunately, right, I internalized that because we all want to be loved and accepted. And so I grew up feeling like I need to always be useful. I need to always be helpful, I need to always be smart. And that's where my greatest value comes from. And I hid the creative, expressive, sassy, you know, really, really sort of juicy parts of my personality. They were there, I kept them alive, but they were on the inside. And so I knew that I needed to be the useful, the useful Kim the business can the smart Kim to really be accepted in the world, right. And as a woman, particularly, I think it's very easy to fall into this idea of like, Who do you need me to be so I can get where I want to go?
Ray Bolourtchi:Now I understand what, what makes people feel like an imposter.
Kimberly Bolourtchi:Right? Because you know, like, I know that when I'm just showing up with part of myself, even if it's the part you want to see, even if it's the part you like a lot, right? Even if it's the part that makes everybody else really happy and really comfortable. If I'm hiding my sparkles, and I'm hiding the essence of myself, because I don't think it's safe to show that I'm not fully showing up. And this is what creates that feeling in freaking 85% of the people who admit it. And I think it's probably everybody at some point even you not admitting it sitting across from me right now. We're where we all feel like, it's not safe to show the world who we truly are in all of our parts and pieces, right? We pick the pieces that are going to serve us the best based on the conditioning we've been given from the world. So if you believe you're your most valuable, when you're useful, you're going to be freaking useful. If you believe your most valuable when you're serving, you're going to be serving, you know, whatever it is that your particular gift is that was really, really pushed by the people around you. And a lot of times it's based on what they need, not on where you're going to shine the most is where you're going to show up and where you're going to push. And the reason I think people hit a ceiling, right in their career in their life or in their relationships is because they have this feeling inside of like, I want more, I need more, I can do more, but they don't know how to access it. Because the more is hidden inside of them in that part that wasn't useful, or that wasn't applauded, or that wasn't rewarded. And so they're like, Well, shit, that's not important enough, that's not worthy enough, that part of me isn't cool, and people aren't going to like it. So I'm going to bury it. And then you have moments, right? Like I did where the worlds are are literally staring each other in the face. And you have to decide, right? Am I this? Or am I that or you say, Fuck this noise, I'm going to be all of it. And that's ultimately where I've arrived. But it's taken me almost this entire journey of my life to get there. And I know there's so many people who feel like they're still choosing their boxes and choosing their roles.
Ray Bolourtchi:So basically, what you're telling me is that this was the triggering moment in your life, the moment that you stepped on the dance floor. That really made you have the Self Realization.
Kimberly Bolourtchi:No, I wish it was, um, it was it was miserable. It was upsetting. It was scary. And I think all I thought about afterward was that I hoped this person didn't recognize me. And I carried that fear for a really, really long time afterward. No, I mean, I have to be honest, since I'm talking about this, this was not a story where it's like, oh, there was this one event that catalyzed everything. For me, it was a series of so many uncomfortable situations over the course of so many years. Before, I think I finally figured out how to navigate it. You know, another one that was like, I look back now, and it was one of my very favorite stories. Do you remember we were arguing before the Supreme Court of Missouri, we had that criminal case? Yeah, that I was arguing with you. And it was my first time appearing before the court, you'd appeared many times. And as is the tradition, an attorney has to interview or not interview, um, it has to introduce the you know, the person appearing for the first time. And so do you remember what you did to me? Yes. What did you do?
Ray Bolourtchi:So, I stood up in front of the court, and I introduced you to the court. And what I said to the court was, you know, Kim Cofman is my law partner. And she also happens to be my wife, which makes me an employee. And also she is an accomplished ballroom dancer. And I remember turning over to you and looking at you, and I think that you, you faded into the wall because you turned white as chalk.
Kimberly Bolourtchi:Yeah, that was, that was another one of those moments, right? Where here I am, I have to argue before the Supreme Court, and of all the things you could say about me, my accomplishments, you choose to start talking about dancing? Well,
Ray Bolourtchi:you know, I am that is probably one of the most proud moments that I've ever had was watching you compete.
Kimberly Bolourtchi:And I appreciate that very much. You know, and in your defense, you didn't know that I was having this massive internal struggle. No, because people who have this fear of being discovered absolutely don't talk about it. Right. So you know, most people who are listening to this you can resonate, are not going to go have conversations about it unless they know for sure someone else feels the same way. It's one of those things that high achieving people don't typically go out and talk about our fears about
Ray Bolourtchi:note on that note. Yeah. So you did your argument. You got grilled? You did fantastic. Argument is over, you then ran to the bathroom. Yes. And then what happens? So
Kimberly Bolourtchi:this is this is one of those moments that was a catalyst, which is why I'm telling the story. So after you embarrassed me,
Ray Bolourtchi:I did not embarrass you.
Kimberly Bolourtchi:I felt embarrassed. Okay, fine. I stand corrected. I felt embarrassed, really humiliated and really concerned again, excuse me, I'm sharing my experience.
Ray Bolourtchi:So you want some Kleenex,
Kimberly Bolourtchi:I went to the restroom, I'm flipping him off, which you guys can't see. But um, I went to the restroom and in walks one of the female justices, and we're both at the sink, she looks at me and she says, Oh, my God. Tell me more about your dancing. Tell me more about ballroom dancing. I have been wanting to have more in my life for such a long time. And like no idea what I really wanted to do, but listening to your husband introduce you as a dancer, knowing that you do that. And this is so amazing. Tell me, tell me more and tell me where I can go to get lessons in this area. So we ended up having this conversation in the bathroom that and, you know, be connecting her with dance lessons in in her area. And that was I think, the moment where I walked out and I was like, You got to be kidding me. I've been walking around, afraid that these two parts of my life could never coexist in harmony. And even though I was still not speaking to you, I was starting to realize that I had been operating under this absolute false sense of what is possible. Right. And I think I think that was the first time that I started to breathe a little bit easier and realize that I don't have to hide right and that maybe it's okay if I embrace all of the parts and pieces and just show up. And I think that Once I started doing that, which I know after that point I did. My dancing changed. My lawyering changed, my consulting changed. My parenting changed. I think that because I stopped spending so much energy trying to project a particular image in a particular situation, to be who the world wanted me to be or what I thought I was supposed to be, and just truly honored myself, even though my gifts and talents are so strangely, meshed. I really started to shine.
Ray Bolourtchi:All right. Well, I have a question for you. Let's assume that you did not run into a a Supreme Court justice, woman Supreme Court justice in the bathroom and that conversation had never occurred. Well, well, what Well, would you still stand by what you just said,
Kimberly Bolourtchi:I honestly believe I would have gotten there. But that was the catalyst that was that was for sure. The beginning, I think that it might have taken longer, it might have been more situations. But no matter how good you are juggling, no matter how good of a chameleon you are, and trust me, I was one of the best. It's unsustainable, to compartmentalize yourself, and to choose your bits and pieces and parts. And to expect that you're going to be able to achieve your greatest impact, and to shine your brightest light, and to be the most incredible version of yourself that you're here to possibly do. Those things are incompatible. You cannot minimize yourself and shrink yourself and hide parts of yourself and expect that you're going to be able to be here, and and shine in the biggest brightest way. Because you need all of your gifts, you really do you need all of your parts. And so I would have gotten there. I believe that because I think this is really my journey. And part of what I'm so good at helping leaders realize and recognize and step into how long it would have taken me. I don't know
Ray Bolourtchi:what so I'm gonna ask you another question. So you had this moment. So for those that haven't had that moment, you know, what would you recommend or suggest for the look in the mirror, look yourself in the eyes and say, Fuck it, this is doing it.
Kimberly Bolourtchi:So interestingly, though, the one of the things that came up while I was doing this research, that is so full circle for me that it almost like blows my mind off my shoulders, is I would tell people that they need to move their bodies and that they need to dance. So for a really long time, I've known that, you know, dance is it's therapeutic, in addition to being liberating, in addition to being freeing, it's, it's the place where I could always express myself without words. So whatever I was feeling whatever I needed to express or wanting to express, I didn't need words, I could just use my body and let my emotions come out through my movement. And so it was, in a lot of ways the most free place for me, but I have the benefit of being trained as a dancer from age two, a lot of people when they think of dancing, they're like, Oh, my God, hell no, I can't move. I can't shake. I'm uncoordinated. I can't this I can't that it's like one of those things that has so much. There's actually so much resistance right around it. And yet, there's research now, as recent as 2022 that just came out of UCLA. That dance is run of Yeah, exactly. I need love that the dance is one of the quickest ways for us to access our inner world. And when I say in a world, I'm talking about all those things that we've hidden inside of us that we might not even know are there, right? Because it could happen when you were really, really young. It can be it can be trauma, it can be grief, it can be somebody told you, you sucked at something, and you vowed to never do it again and you buried it right. It's hard to know what all we've hidden away over the years. But when you allow yourself to move, and you allow yourself to dance, and you allow yourself the freedom of letting your body access what it knows to be true, then you can really connect all your parts and pieces. And so although there are gazillions of self help books out there, like imposter phenomenon, or impostor syndrome is tons of resources about how you can think your way out of it. List your accomplishments make, you know, make note of all the good things you're doing great. All of that is good. But it's it's dealing with the symptom. It's not dealing with the fundamental problem, which is we have conditioned ourselves to not be hold and to not believe that it's okay to be hold.
Ray Bolourtchi:I think I'm going to translate that and I'm going to age myself, but hopefully a lot of the people that are listening, if they haven't, they'll go and look at the original. So what you're telling me is that all the people that I haven't done that are living in the same town where Footloose was shot, there's a city ordinance. Dancing is prohibited but You know, the pinnacle of that show is really or that movie is really the end. And how all the kids that that wanted to dance, they really wanted to get out and dance and and so fully expressive. And I agree with you watch Footloose.
Kimberly Bolourtchi:It's a great movie. The original though not the remakes. No. No, I mean, I think I think, you know, look, we come onto this earth, everybody knowing how to move if you watch it a toddler, you watch a little kid with music, when music comes on, they shake, they move, they wiggle like they do. We all know how to dance. It's, it's inherent in our bodies. And it's only our thoughts and ideas about appropriateness and about whether we should or could or can't or won't, that makes us think we can't do it. And I'm never going to win that argument, right? When someone says, I can't dance. I mean, I know that everyone can dance, right? Even if you're just you can dance in a chair, just you don't have to
Ray Bolourtchi:People worry how they're going to be perceived when they're when they I mean, that nobody wants to have the Elaine moment.
Kimberly Bolourtchi:I understand that. I don't I totally feel that. Of course. So so I know. Like, no one wants to look stupid, it goes back to we want to be accepted and we want to belong. And I'm not talking about dancing for anyone else I'm really talking about you know, you asked me what, what would my advice be? And truly as unconventional as it is, it's dancing, but dancing for yourself and in your own way, right, moving your body. And there are specific movements and specific ways things you can do to just like shortcut, the conditioning and shortcut the limitations. And I love showing people how to do that, because it's freaking magic. They're like, Oh, my God, I didn't know I could do that. And it works really, really well. But even if you never step into a studio with another person, you can turn on music and find it for yourself and not make it about the steps like you don't need to learn a tick tock dance. It's it's allowing your own body to find a rhythm and just kind of move to music. Because you start connecting with you know what, what already lives in you, which is a greater sense of confidence and a greater sense of knowing. And that's what we need, right? And if it's not dance, then maybe it's moving in some other way. Right? I'm not saying dance is the only way to do it. But we we have what we need, it already lives here. And so anybody who tells you, you need to go get it out there, it's out there, go find it out there. They're full of shit. It is. I believe this I know this to be true. It is in every single one of us what we need to be our biggest and brightest is here. It lives here. We have to be able to access it and to remember who we are. And to go be that putting our edges out and not being so afraid. And the more of us to do it. I do believe that's how greater acceptance happens.
Ray Bolourtchi:Amen, sister.
Kimberly Bolourtchi:I am like it's Sunday. I am preaching today. Um, anyway. So I feel obviously I'm pounding the table on this topic. But I feel so strongly about, you know, people really feeling like it's safe to show up more whole. And I'm super excited to be bringing this morning to my work because, you know, again, this is a place I would be afraid to be like, oh, you should just come dance with me and I'm like, Listen, you really want to feel this. Come on, let's go. So I think it's good.
Ray Bolourtchi:Free the hips
Kimberly Bolourtchi:free the hips. Thank you for joining me.
Ray Bolourtchi:Thanks for having me.
Kimberly Bolourtchi:Absolutely. This is Kimberly Bolourtchi You've been listening to boldly stated I would love to hear from you. If this resonates. If you have an experience you want to share with me please feel free to send me a message and we will see you on the show next time.